Legislature(1997 - 1998)
09/30/1997 01:12 PM House FSH
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HB 149 - PREFER CONSUMPTIVE USE SALMON FISHERIES Number 0034 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN announced that the committee would hear HB 149 "An Act relating to the management of salmon fisheries; and providing for an effective date." He stated that the committee has handed out a list of ideas that the committee would like to hear comments on in addition to HB 149. He stated that there are a lot of issues that need to be heard in relation to HB 149. Number 0176 REPRESENTATIVE VIC KOHRING, Sponsor, stated that HB 149 is to primarily direct the Board of Fisheries to give the first priority, after the escapement goals are met, to the consumptive user; which are the sport fishermen and personal and subsistence user. He stated that the bill is only applicable to Cook Inlet because Cook Inlet is the only area that has over 500,000 angler days per year. He stated it does not apply to Southeast Alaska, Kodiak or Dillingham. He stated that there are problems with the numbers of coho and red salmon in the Mat-Su valley. He stated that it is reflective of the F.I.S.H (Fairness in Salmon Harvest) Initiative. He stated that 28,000 people signed the F.I.S.H. Initiative. Number 0358 REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING stated that there were restrictions placed on the rivers by the Alaska Department of Fish and Game (ADF&G), such as a 1 salmon limit, restriction of bait and hooks, in order to let more fish escape. He stated that as a result people did not have access to those fish, which exacerbated the whole problem. He stated that people did not get enough fish this year to put on their tables. He stated that the economy has grown in recent years due to the sport fish industry. He stated that lodge owners, grocery stores, charter owners, bait shops and gas stations have had good economic benefits from a strong sport fish industry. He stated that as a result of the stream closures and restrictions, many businesses have lost money. Number 0553 REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING stated that he does not think the resource is being managed correctly. He stated that there does seem to be a correlation between the driftnet fleet and the fish that return to the stream and rivers. He stated that this bill would place restrictions on the commercial intercept in Upper Cook Inlet. He stated that the way the fish are divided up currently, gives the personal consumptive user 3 percent of the resource and the commercial fishermen 95 percent. He stated that the fish are not being distributed on a fair basis but with HB 149 there will be a few more fish for the personal consumptive user. He stated that allocation of 5 percent of the statewide resource will not devastate the commercial industry or put them out of business. He stated that this legislation should not be feared. He stated that the resource is being wiped out in the Cook Inlet area and there is not going to be a sustained yield which will hurt all users. Number 1123 REPRESENTATIVE GENE KUBINA asked Representative Kohring if he is convinced HB 149 is constitutional and asked how it relates to the subsistence priority debate that is occurring. Number 1213 REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING replied that he thought it was constitutional. He stated that constitution refers to providing for a sustained yield which is one of the goals of the bill. He stated that he wants to preserve and protect the resource for everyone with first priority to the sport fisherman and subsistence user. He reiterated that ADF&G is not meeting his area's needs by placing restrictions on the fishermen. Number 1359 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA stated that the Mat-Su Borough is the fastest growing sport fishing area and he referred to the combat fishing on the Kenai River. He stated that there were twice as many nonresident sport fishing licenses sold as there were resident licenses sold and asked what Representative Kohring thought about an out of state restriction on salmon. Number 1440 REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING stated that there is a lot of economic gain from nonresident sport fishing and he would try to not restrict nonresident sport fishing. He stated that there are a lot of driftnet fishermen from the lower 48 states. Number 1554 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA stated that he would like to see residents gain more from their resources. He stated that there have now been close to 1 millon nonresident licenses and he asked when is it appropriate to place restrictions. He stated that in the Prince William Sound area there were quite a few coho salmon available and people were still complaining that they did not get enough. He stated that charter boats take out 6 people at a time and they are allowed to catch 36 salmon. He stated that nonresidents seem to believe that it is their right to catch the limit and feel that it is a guarantee instead of a sport. He stated that tourism is a good industry and it does bring in money but he questioned if it is appropriate that people are taking boxes and boxes of fish out of Alaska. He referred to the problem with the R.V. fishermen in the Kenai who are paying for their vacation with their abundant salmon catch. He stated that the question is how does the legislature ensure that people can make a living in Alaska without trying to hurt the other interests. Number 1849 REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING replied that he is not sure where the line would be drawn. He stated that a restriction on sport fishermen would be a decision for ADF&G. He stated that he feels that there is enough of the resource to go around, it just needs to be allocated in a fair way. He stated that 3 percent is not a fair percentage. Number 1925 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA asked Representative Kohring to explain what he means by 3 percent. He asked if it is 3 percent of all the species taken because if so the largest number salmon available is pink salmon. He asked Representative Kohring if he means that the sport fishermen in Cook Inlet will take 3 percent of the king salmon based on the total number of all the species or if he means 3 percent of the total state wide king salmon stock. Number 2006 REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING replied that he is talking about 3 percent of all the species. Number 2015 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA stated that pink salmon make up the largest percentage of salmon available. He said "And you don't want to fish for pink salmon. You do not want to take 5 percent of that and 5 percent of the kings and 5 percent of the reds. You want to take the cream of the crop. You want to make sure you get 80 percent of the king salmon and then that you consider that being 5 percent of the total resource." He asked Representative Kohring if that was accurate. Number 2035 REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING responded that was essentially accurate. He stated that pinks are not the pre-dominate species in the streams and rivers of the Mat-Su Borough, it is primarily sockeye and coho salmon. Number 2105 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA asked Representative Kohring why he is counting all of the species in the statewide total, especially the statewide total of pink salmon when pink salmon are not being targeted in the Mat-Su Borough. He stated that is what is misleading to people. He stated that Representative Kohring is counting the statewide number of pink salmon in his total and is stating that they are only taking 3 percent of the all species in the statewide harvest when they are not fishing all the species. Number 2126 REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING stated the percentage is 3 percent of all the salmon species. Number 2128 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA stated that it is a percentage of the total stocks but Representative Kohring does not want to take five percent of every species because he would feel that only 5 percent of the king salmon run would not be fair. He wants one species to be able to be caught that would add up to five percent of the entire statewide stocks, all species combined. Number 2155 REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING stated that issue is not addressed in the legislation. He stated that the technical details have not entered in the legislation. He stated that issue of species access can be addressed or it can be left up to ADF&G to decide. Number 2227 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA replied that he wanted Representative Kohring to understand the problem he has with the legislation is in the way he is defining his argument; by stating that his area is only getting 3 percent of the fish is an unfair argument. He asked if Representative Kohring thought that the significant increase in the number of people fishing in the Deshka River and other areas have degraded that habitat and is affecting the salmon in the area. Number 2320 REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING stated that it is a possibility that certainly exists but he is not aware any major degradation where the fish spawn. Number 2344 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA asked Representative Kohring if he has worked with ADF&G to ensure that the habitat is being protected. Number 2414 REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING stated that he is concerned about that and he would be in favor of preserving the habitat because it would he to his area's benefit as well to have adequate spawning grounds. He stated that the Kenai River has a good restoration program. Number 2510 REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING restated his sponsor statement for those who were not able to hear him the first time. Number 2834 REPRESENTATIVE SCOTT OGAN stated that there is a constitutional priority for commercial fisheries through the limited entry system. He stated that there is a constitutional mandate to manage on a sustained yield basis. He stated that Article 8, Section 8, of the constitution states that there can be discrimination against the uses but not users of the resource. He stated that the Board of Fisheries currently has the authority to limit out of state residents' bag limits without any changes, statutes or amendments. Number 2943 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated that the big issue is that the 5 percent allocation is coming out of the statewide total salmon resource. He stated that he heard testimony from the CooK Inlet driftnetters that said, "If all they wanted was 5 percent of the fish in Cook Inlet we'd be standing in line to get behind this proposal." He stated that the argument is that the 5 percent allocation could wipe out the entire allocation for the Cook Inlet commercial fishermen. He stated that maybe there is a way to modify the bill. Number 3204 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that during session the committee will debate the pros and cons of the bill, the hearing today is just to take testimony. Number 3241 BOB MARTINSON, Chairman, Cordova District Fishermen United, (CDFU) stated that CDFU strongly opposes HB 149. He stated that he has lived in the Mat-Su valley for over ten years. There are more than 200 limited entry permit holders and more than 2,000 crew license holders residing in the Mat-Su valley. He stated that in Anchorage, there are more than 1,200 permit holders and 5,500 crew members. He stated that HB 149 is a rewrite of the F.I.S.H. Initiative which was found unconstitutional on the grounds that public opinion should not delegate control over a natural resource. He stated that control over a resource involves careful study of many variables being considered under scientific conditions. This management is currently being done by ADF&G. He stated that the bill is to satisfy the lodge owners and river boat guides so they can have all the fish to support their high-ticket clients. He stated that the 5 percent allocation is highly deceptive. He stated that if HB 149 was law in 1996, 8.4 millon of any species of salmon would go to the guiding industry. These sport businesses are unrestricted, and they do not have to report their catches and they are harming the habitat. He stated that the commercial sport fishing industry is making a lot of money and they are influencing politicians. He stated that the Northwest, Internal and Coastal Alaska economies depend solely on the viability of the commercial fishing industry. He asked if the government really wants to ignore this fact just because the major population base has. Number 3835 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN reiterated that it is the legislature that delegates the responsibility to the Board of Fisheries. He stated that it is ultimately the legislature's responsibility. Number 4012 MR. MARTINSON referred to the certificate issued by the legislature to CDFU, in 1989 to honor Prince William Sound in their 100 years of commercial fishing and economic support to the community. Number 4100 TOM NAMTVEDT, Commercial Fisherman, stated that he fishes in Prince William Sound on the Copper River. He referred to Section 16.05.740 (b) and stated that it could be devastating to both Cook Inlet and Copper River commercial salmon fisheries. He stated that it could result in the allocation of most of the king, coho and sockeye salmon to sport and personal use fishermen. He stated that a large pink salmon run in Southeast Alaska and Kodiak would guarantee a large harvest of the more desirable species by the sport and personal use fisheries, with the 5 percent allocation in effect. Number 4252 MR. NAMTVEDT stated that Representative Kohring stated that the bill is aimed at Cook Inlet but there is no wording in the bill referring to Cook Inlet. He stated that he could be put out of business. He stated that this is an example of vague legislation that can hurt a lot of residents. He asked if more fish in combat fishing areas is really what residents want. TAPE 97-25, SIDE B Number 0040 KEN SVETC (TAPE STARTED IN THE MIDDLE OF TESTIMONY) stated that the commercial fishermen are not catching the king salmon, they are not up the Deshka River, but they are up in Ship Creek. He questioned how the fish could get up to Ship Creek and not be in the Deshka River, and stated that the sport fishermen must be getting them. REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA referred to statistics quoted by Mr. Svetc at the beginning of his testimony and stated that he wanted to get his figures correct and asked for the numbers. MR. SVETC stated that he checked with ADF&G to make sure he was figuring it right. He said "they take 33.5 percent of the total harvest of silvers also, right now in the inlet and in the Kenai I think they have done studies that it is over 80 percent." REPRESENTATIVE OGAN referred to the statistics that Mr. Svetc quoted at the beginning of his testimony. MR. SVETC stated that the streams are being overfished. The total harvest of king salmon was 121,000 total harvest for a four year average. He suggested that king salmon be available for residents of Alaska only (spectators applauded). He stated that in Minnesota they have a fishery restricted for residents only, therefore limiting a species to residents should be constitutionally correct. Number 0508 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated that he would have a hard time facing the Alaskan lodge owners if nonresidents were not allowed to fish for king salmon. Number 0509 MR. SVETC stated that there are a lot more residents then lodge owners. Number 0654 WARREN OLSON stated that he is a lead plaintiff in the district court on subsistence case before Judge Holland. He referred to the Public Trust Doctrine which is about the ownership of the resource for personal consumption. He stated that whatever is detrimental to the quantity and quality of harvest for the residents can be curtailed. He referred to a book called Putting the Public Trust Doctrine to Work. It was compiled by 29 coastal U.S. states and is for the enhancement, use, quality access and quantity of the fisheries. He stated that the legislature has the responsibility to enhance these resources. He stated that it is time to enhance the tributaries to bring the returns up and increase access. He stated commercial fishing comes after personal consumption. He suggested the committee read an article by the Assistant Professor of Natural Resources at the University of Alaska that illustrates the legislatures responsibility to the Public Trust Doctrine. Number 1322 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if his support of HB 149 was to allocate more fish to the upper reaches of the river systems or if he was advocating increasing access via hatcheries. He explained that HB 149 is an allocation issue bill of taking fish from one user group and allocating them to another user group. Number 1454 MR. OLSON stated that he believes there can be a better job of putting fish in the tributaries. He stated that the Public Trust Doctrine is the bottom line. He stated that it is the responsibility of the legislature to enhance the access and that can be achieved through a number of ways. He stated that HB 149 should apply to the entire state. Number 1718 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated that there is a publication by Greg Cook and asked that he might brief the committee on the Public Trust Doctrine. Number 1920 DONALD BREADWATER, Subsistence Fishermen, stated that he and the commercial fishermen are restricted and asked why no one is restricting the guides. He stated that he can no longer go and get the fish he needs for the season. He stated that he had two coho salmon this year. He stated that the legislature is allowing nonresidents to come up to rape Alaska's waters. He questioned if the legislators are getting money from lobbyists because they are "screwing over Alaskans." REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked if he was proposing a constitutional amendment to limit the sport fish guides, because it would take an constitutional amendment to limit the guides. Number 2239 MR. BREADWATER asked Representative Ogan if he wanted Alaskan waters to end up like Oregon and Washington, where there are hardly any fish. Number 2247 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN replied absolutely not. Number 2247 MR. BREADWATER asked what it will take because that is were the fishery is headed. He stated that if a constitutional amendment is what it will take to limit the number of sport guides on the river, then that should be done. Number 2330 RON WILSON, Sport Fisherman, stated he supports HB 149 because if there aren't any fish up the river there will not be any in the ocean. He stated that he lived in the Northwest and has watched the resource decline. He stated that it is due to lack of management. He stated that in Alaska there are restrictions but they occur after the fact. He stated that he does not think HB 149 will impact the commercial fishermen as much as it will help the sport fishermen. He thinks HB 149 will help both users because if the fish are not going up the river then they will not return. He stated that he would not like to see commercial fishermen out of business, however he would like to see stocks in the river. He stated that the sport fishing industry helps the Mat-Su Borough. Number 2725 CLIFF JUDKINS, Subsistence Fisherman, stated that he has been fishing the Susitna River System for 34 years. He stated that every year he catches 50 to 60 salmon, mostly coho salmon. He stated that the subsistence and commercial fishermen ought to have some priority. He stated that recreational fishermen ought to take what is left. He stated that he remembers when there were not any guides or tourists, now that same area is so overcrowded with tourists he will not fish there anymore. He stated that the increase of guides has destroyed the fishery because it puts too many people on the river. He stated that when there are more buyers than the product, either the buyers have to eliminated or the price has to be raised. He stated that if the price of a king salmon for nonresident fishermen was $1000 then coolers of king salmon would not be taken home (spectators applauded). He stated that when he fished in Canada he could not take three Dolly Varden out of Canada because of a treaty that allows only 1-day's limit of fish be taken out of the country. He said "I am a subsistence fisherman and I would like to keep fishing and it would be nice to be able to cast your line out without 60 guys running across it and you can't even tell them to get off of it because they don't even speak the language." Number 3054 MR. JUDKINS stated that he would like sport fishing to be deleted off the bill as a definition for a consumptive user. Number 3126 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated that he wanted to look into limiting the number of fish that are taken out of state. Number 3140 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA asked if he was supportive of the rural amendment on subsistence. Number 3146 MR. JUDKINS replied that he is not in favor of changing the constitution, although he does not know which would be more favorable for himself. Number 3212 PAGE HERRING, Northern District Setnetter, stated that she participates in the closest commercial fishery to the Mat-Su Borough. She stated that of the fish that are in the Northern District area, sport fishermen take 98 percent of the kings, 50 to 60 percent of the coho salmon and 20 percent of the sockeye salmon. She stated that if they only wanted 5 percent she would be happy to give it to them. She stated that she could not fish from July 14 to July 25 and the season was closed August 4. She stated that it was a justified closure due to the lack of coho salmon. She stated that HB 149 would result in a total net ban for Cook Inlet. She stated that she has a right to make a living. MS. HERRING stated that the setnetters only have 110 permits which are all held by residents. She stated that there is no limit on the guides. She stated commercial fishermen are ostracized and treated like second class citizens. She stated that the major problem is the growth of the sport fishing industry and asked when there is going to be a cap on the number of guides. She stated that the restrictions on sport fishing are not enforced and exemptions are constantly being given. She stated that habitat is not taken into consideration. She explained that commercial fishermen are restricted by time, gear and number of permits. She stated that HB 149 would devastate her fishery and her ability to support her family. Number 3919 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated that the price of nonresident licenses were increased as of last year. Number 3937 MS. HERRING stated that she has lost fishing time due to sport fish pressures. She stated that she has lost three quarters of her king fishery and is only allowed to fish with one net, for a six hour opener, once a year. She stated that the sport fishing industry benefits from the restrictions on the commercial fishermen and asked how the increase of the cost of the nonresident sportfish licenses would help her. She stated that there needs to be a cap on the guides. Number 4011 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN replied that there can not be a cap on the guides without a constitutional amendment. Number 4012 MS. HERRING asked why was there able to be a cap on commercial fishermen and not on guides. She stated that they need to be limited somehow, all it takes to be a guide is a business license and a boat. Number 4058 LEVI GUSTAFSON, Northern District Commercial Fisherman, stated that he is against HB 149. He stated that he has been hearing about the economic benefit that sport fishing brings to Alaska and wanted to point out that every permit holder in the commercial fishing industry is a small business. If Cook Inlet is shut down to commercial fishing, 1,500 small businesses will be out of business which would seriously devastate the economy. He stated that he does not understand why preference should be given to nonresidents. He stated that he does not enjoy sport fishing anymore because of the overcrowding. He stated that restrictions need to be placed on nonresidents. Number 4400 DON SHERWOOD, President of Alaska Boating Association, stated that he is in support of HB 149. He stated that members noticed a lack of fish due to commercial fishing. He stated that when the Kodiak seiners were on strike there was an increase in the king salmon catch. He stated that they are asking for a fair share of the resource. He referred to possible solutions such as the to the extension of roads to increase access to the streams. He stated that this would not be possible because of the environmental mandates that it would have to go through to be approved. TAPE 97-26, SIDE A Number 004 MR. SHERWOOD stated that he wants to bring a fair share of fish to his family's table. Number 0104 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked Mr. Sherwood if he looked at the 1994 coded wire tagging study on the Kodiak area. Chairman Austerman advised him to look at the study so he will be informed to the facts. The study indicates what Cook Inlet king salmon are being caught in the Kodiak area and that more Cook Inlet fish were caught in Southeast Alaska in 1994 than in Kodiak. He referred to Mr. Sherwood's comment of the increase of king salmon in Cook Inlet during the Kodiak seine strike and asked him if he had read ADF&G letter explaining how those fish migrate past Kodiak. Number 0300 MR. SHERWOOD stated that he had not read the information. Number 0320 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that Representative Kohring should make that information available because the Cook Inlet salmon are long past Kodiak before the commercial fishery has an opening whether or not there is a strike. Number 0347 MR. SHERWOOD asked if there was a chance that ADF&G could be wrong. Number 0359 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked Mr. Sherwood when he started catching all his fish in the Deshka River. Number 0459 MR. SHERWOOD replied that he started catching fish on May 12. Number 0465 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that the first Kodiak opening is in June. He asked how could Kodiak seiners be intercepting Cook Inlet's fish when the fish are already in the river. Number 0505 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said, "Its a fact that ADF&G, the wire coded tagging project on the Deshka has failed and they have admitted that in testimony last year. I think it was in this committee if I recall correctly, so we really do not know and that is the problem." Number 0535 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN replied that he has a hard time understanding how Representative Kohring and others can point the finger at Kodiak as intercepting the fish, when the fish have already gone by before there is a commercial opening. He stated that without the biological information and facts about what is going on, to just point fingers is not going to help the situation at all. He stated that if one is going to say there is an interception going on, it needs to be backed up with facts. Number 0616 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA stated that he was confused because Mr. Sherwood stated that he supported the bill but then said that the commercial fleet really was not the problem in Cook Inlet. He stated that he was not clear on what Mr. Sherwood felt was in the bill that would help is organization. Representative Kubina stated that he wants to make sure the rivers are healthy and that people can catch fish, but this bill is a divisive bill. Representative Kubina asked Mr. Sherwood if his association would support the restrictions on nonresidents, such as bag limits and if his association has a stand on ADF&G's budget. Number 0638 MR. SHERWOOD replied that the association has not discussed restrictions on nonresidents but they have talked about ADF&G's budget. He stated that several members feel that they are overbudgeted and some do not. He stated that the reasons being that members are unhappy about what is occurring in the streams for the past 10 years. Number 0655 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA asked if he would like more access to the river. MR. SHERWOOD stated that he would but the chances of that occurring are slim. Number 0800 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that he had not heard any comments on the lack of research. He stated that unless there is some decent research being done, we will never know what is happening to our fisheries. Number 0853 KORY BLAKE, Commercial Fisherman, stated that he has been a commercial fisherman since 1970 and he strongly opposes HB 149. He stated that the 5 percent allocation is misleading as it does not allocate equally by species or area of return. He stated that in 1996, the 5 percent allocation would have given 8.5 millon fish to the sport and personal use fisheries, which would have stopped all commercial fishing in Cook Inlet and the Copper River waters, without reaching the 5 percent goal. He stated that Representative Kohring ignores that fact that commercial fishing is the second largest revenue producing industry in Alaska and the state's largest employer. He stated that it is unfair to restrict other areas in the state when the problem lies in the Upper Susitna River Drainage. He stated that the bill was drafted for lodge owners and sport guides who cater to the nonresident sport fishermen. He stated that all allocation issues should be resolved by the Board of Fisheries who get their facts from ADF&G. Number 1112 MR. BLAKE stated that there needs to be more funds going into research. He stated that there is a Big Lake hatchery that was shut down. He stated that facility could be put back into use to take stocks from one river system and be put back into the streams. He stated that the commercial fishermen financially support the hatcheries and he questioned where the sport fishermen support was. Number 1236 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked if he would support limits on nonresidents. Number 1313 MR. BLAKE replied that he would. Number 1450 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated that in regards to subsistence there is not support in the legislature to get a rural priority, however the way to resolve it is to give an Alaskan priority. So that the allocation would go to Alaskans first. Number 1521 MR. BLAKE stated that he does think there should be a subsistence priority in rural areas. Number 1603 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA stated that he did not want it to go on the record that there was not a way for the legislature to support a rural subsistence priority. Number 1642 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that he wanted to stay off the subsistence issue. Number 1650 BILL PACE, Commercial Fisherman, stated that he is opposed to HB 149. He stated that he fishes out of Cordova but his home is in the Mat-Su Borough. He stated that HB 149 is bad for the fisheries and bad for the state of Alaska. He stated that there are sufficient stocks for all users as long as no one is greedy and upsets the balance. He asked how research was going to be funded without the taxes being paid every year by the commercial fishermen. He stated that the small amount of money from the sport fish license sales will not support fisheries management on the scale needed to keep the runs healthy. Commercial fishermen pay a 3 percent tax to support ADF&G. He stated that without the commercial fishing industry the research and management efforts will not have the financial backing or the data base that the commercial fishing industry supplies. He stated that no amount of tourism, sport fishing or subsistence, can replace commercial fishing in the state's economic base. He stated that diminishing commercial fisheries will result in diminishing all fisheries. He stated that to demand more programs that require more research and management efforts while simultaneously reducing the funding available does not make sense. He stated that fisheries are collapsing on a world wide level while Alaska's fisheries are relatively healthy due to the commercial fishing industry's support to ADF&G for research. Number 2012 EMMETT HEIDEMANN, Sport Guide, stated that he does some commercial fishing but he does not have a salmon permit. He stated that he is opposed to HB 149. He stated that most of the 28,000 people that signed the petition for the F.I.S.H. Initiative, received $1 for their signature. He stated that the biggest problem with the resources is lack of knowledge. He stated that the only school system that teaches anything about fishing is in Kodiak. He stated that everybody has to be on the same plane through education so intelligent decisions about the resource can be made. He stated that he has heard statements from tourists halibut fishing that the reason they did not catch any halibut was because the commercial fishermen were out there with their nets halibut fishing. He stated that he is against tourists using Alaska's resource for profit and it should be stopped. He stated that when tourists are caught breaking the law, all they receive is a slap on the wrist. He stated that all the double axle trailers on the Kenai are carrying freezers and boxes in order make their living of selling Alaskan salmon in the Lower 48. He asked why there isn't any enforcement of the laws. He indicated that Alaska needs to start looking out for Alaskans and HB 149 is not for Alaskans. Number 3040 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN agreed that offenders are just getting their wrist slapped. He stated the legislature did increase the number of trooper positions but it is still very much understaffed. Number 3241 EUGENE SVETC, Sport and Commercial Fisherman, stated that he is strongly opposed to HB 149. He stated that the sport fishing percentage of king salmon taken in Cook Inlet over the last four years is 84.6 percent on average. He stated that of that percentage, 604 of the kings were caught by 580 boats. He stated that every fish that the commercial fishermen sell are recorded. He stated that there is no regulation or record of sport fishing. A sport fisherman can catch over his limit and not be caught because there is really no regulation of his catch. He stated that the 84.6 percent of king salmon equates to 102,000 king salmon out of the 120,000 king salmon that are available. He stated that 5 percent would increase the sport fisherman's catch to 125,000 king salmon, which is over the total number of kings harvested in Cook Inlet. He stated that there should be a law passed allocating king salmon for residents only. Number 3709 MR. SVETC stated that commercial fishermen pay 3 percent of their gross income to the state. The lodge owners, guides and charter boat operators pay nothing to the state. He proposed that there be a 3 percent tax on their gross income for research. He stated that it appears that the driftnetters are the scapegoat for all of the problems on the river. He stated that the only way a king salmon could get from Kodiak to Cook Inlet from the time the seiners went on strike to when the sport fishermen noticed the increase of king salmon is with an airline ticket. Number 3948 MR. SVETC stated that there are too many people fishing on the Deshka and Susitna River, which in result is hurting the spawning grounds. He suggested that power boats be eliminated in all the rivers. He stated that in Homer there are fish put into an area and he suggested that be done in Cook Inlet. He stated that more roads will only bring more tourists creating more of a problem. He suggested limiting the nonresident sport fishing licenses to stop the illegal processing and sale of Alaskan salmon. Number 4400 BRUCE KNOWLES, Sport Fisherman and Guide, stated that he supports HB 149. NO RECORDING WAS DONE ON TAPE 97-26, SIDE B. THE BEGINNING OF MR. KNOWLES TESTIMONY WAS NOT RECORDED DUE TO TAPE CHANGE. TAPE 97-27, SIDE A Number 0004 MR. KNOWLES stated that the bill states that the 5 percent is not mandatory. He stated that there is a problem with salmon allocation. He stated that the streams are not meeting their escapement goals. He stated that commercial fishermen have no data on where the fish are going that they are intercepting. He stated that commercial fishermen feel that because of their limited entry permits they have the right to make a living and are guaranteed the right to take salmon. He stated that a limited entry permit does not authorize that. He stated that there were no tagged king salmon from Upper Cook Inlet because there was not a tagging program in the early 1990's. Number 0410 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that ADF&G report indicated there are Cook Inlet tagged fish. MR. KNOWLES stated that the tagging was not from Upper Cook Inlet. He indicated that is where the intercepts are occurring. He stated that the targeted fisheries are killing the native stocks. He stated that adding fish stocks to the waters creates more commercial fishing and adds to the demise of the native stocks. Number 0630 MR. KNOWLES stated that sport fishermen have voluntarily restricted themselves to the number of king salmon they are allowed to take. He stated that they went to the Board of Fisheries and asked for a 5 fish limit with a 2 fish limit on the Kenai River. He stated that the average person fishing in Alaska takes 26.2 fish. He stated that nobody knows how many fish are taken out by nonresident fishermen. He stated that we do not know how many fish are taken out by nonresident commercial fishing crews. He stated that there is no equity in the current management because commercial fishermen fishing in closed waters just receive a slap on the wrist. He stated that there needs to be more wildlife protection and a sound management program. He stated that salmon should be protected along their entire migratory route. Number 1100 MR. KNOWLES stated that there are nine proposals before the Board of Fisheries to limit the number of fishing guides in Alaska. He stated that he does not support a limited entry process because he does not want another elitist group formed. He stated that the streams are in good shape. He said, "I managed the lower 13 miles of the Deshka for the borough during the summer." He stated that he had patrolled the Deshka river three times a week saw very little habitat degradation. He stated that there are areas at the mouth of the River that have degradation but there is no degradation at the salmon spawning areas. Number 1409 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA stated that he wanted to note that Mr. Knowles started his testimony by stating that he wanted to make sure that personal, sport and subsistence fishermen were entitled to the resource and that Mr. Knowles stated that he wanted to create an entitlement. Number 1427 MR. KNOWLES replied that is correct. He stated the it is the right of Alaskans to be able to feed their families. He stated that the constitution states that the resources be shared. He stated that on Fish Creek, personal use dipnetters were not allowed to fish for salmon due to low returns while commercial fishermen were allowed to fish, which he felt was not right. Number 1524 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA referred to Mr. Knowles' statement that low water marks and a freeze would damage the resource and he asked how HB 149 would protect that from happening. Number 1533 MR. KNOWLES stated that if there was enough salmon returning to meet the biological escapement goals routinely then a whole stream will not be lost during a freeze. He stated that if a small percentage of fish return the majority of them will be lost during a freeze. Number 1625 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA referred to Mr. Knowles' statement that the fish should be protected along their entire migratory route and asked if he thought that was a good management program even though it may result in an extreme overabundance in certain areas. Number 1653 MR. KNOWLES replied, "Certainly." He stated that there is no proven theory on overabundance. He stated that it is a hyped up theory that has no validity. He stated that management styles need to be changed from managing from the oceans in to managing from the rivers out. Number 1817 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA asked that if the biologists were correct in stating that it is more dangerous to have more fish in the river then having not enough, would Mr. Knowles rather jeopardize fish in 100 creeks in order to get fish into one. Number 1833 MR. KNOWLES stated that if there was proof that an overabundance is detrimental to the resource he would believe it, but right now it is just a hypothetical theory. Number 1900 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA stated that he appreciated Mr. Knowles' support for more data and asked that he talk to his friends on the House Finance Standing Committee to suggest more funding be allocated for research. Number 1907 MR. KNOWLES referred to an article in the Alaska Fisherman's Journal that was written by him, in which he threatened to enact the Endangered Species Act for Knik Arm, and stated that he is serious. He stated that he was asked by the valley legislators to hold off on that in order to allow something to be accomplished. He stated that he intends to enact the Endangered Species Act if HB 149 does not pass. Number 1935 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA stated that Mr. Knowles has the right to use the court system, however Mr. Knowles will have to suffer the consequences of that court decision. Number 1953 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA referred to Mr. Knowles' statement that the average sport fishermen gets 26.2 fish and asked if that is for all the sport fishing permits that are issued. Number 1957 MR. KNOWLES replied 26.2 fish is the average number given in one of the studies by ADF&G of the average number of fish kept. Number 2019 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA stated that some people could be keeping 500 fish and others could be keeping 1 fish. Number 2027 MR. KNOWLES stated that in 1989 he came across some Swedish tourists salting down king salmon who claimed to have 82 king salmon. He stated that he could not get anyone from ADF&G to go and intervene. He stated that there is a problem with sport and commercial fishermen. He stated that SB 40 coupled with HB 149 will pay for the studies that have to be done. Number 2209 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA asked if he was supportive of restricting the number of guides and stricter bag limits. Number 2240 Mr. KNOWLES stated that he would be supportive of restricting the number of guides and stated that 65 percent of his clients are Alaskan. He stated that this past summer he only had nine out of state customers. Number 2257 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA asked how many king salmon a nonresident fishermen can take. Number 2303 MR. KNOWLES replied 5 king salmon. REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA stated that the number of king salmon that can be taken is the same for a resident and as it is for a nonresident. Number 2357 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked Mr. Knowles if he is aware of the extra million dollars that was allocated for studies in Upper Cook Inlet this year. Number 2407 MR. KNOWLES replied that they need $2 million more. He stated that other species of fish are lost when the salmon runs start to diminish. Number 2524 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated that the funds from the king salmon stamp go into Southeast Alaska and he stated that he has been trying to get some of that money up in this area. He stated that in Bristol Bay the fishing is done from the river out. There are zones around the river which is different from the management of Cook Inlet. Number 2611 MR. KNOWLES stated that there are two distinct management concepts. In Bristol Bay they do not allow commercial fishing in a lot of areas until there is the escapement in the streams. He stated that he has heard reports that say that anywhere from 85 to 90 percent of coho salmon that head up Cook Inlet are headed for the Northern District. He stated that they catch anywhere from 250,000 to 700,000 coho salmon a year. He stated that he has submitted a proposal to the Board of Fisheries that will established a 1 mile sanctuary around the mouth of all streams, in order to protect the fish once they are headed into the streams. He stated that he submitted another proposal that states when an emergency order is issued for extra commercial fishing time, they must reduce their fishing gear by one-half until all escapement goals are met. He stated that sport fishermen would have to reduce their harvest of red salmon by one-half. Number 2737 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that he hopes to continue to work with him on this issue. He stated that there would not be all these hearings on the bill if the committee were not interested in resolving the issue. MR. KNOWLES replied that he sincerely hoped so and that it was not just posturing. CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that he is not here just to posture issues and he is not the one making statements to newspapers posturing issues. He stated that he is here to get the facts in order to resolve the issues. He stated that he will continue to work on it but he does not feel that everything in HB 149 is correct. He stated that he feels that it is possible to work towards something that is workable. He stated that issues of management and how to get the correct management and research is one direction that he will be addressing. Number 2912 MR. KNOWLES stated that this past summer the commercial fish division authorized 12 days of uninterrupted fishing in Central Cook Inlet while personal use fishing was cut off. He stated that this is mismanagement. Number 2957 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA explained that it is more complicated than that. He stated that sport fishermen in Prince William Sound were angry because they were not getting enough coho salmon and blamed the cause on the commercial fishing that was occurring nearby. The commercial fishermen weren't fishing coho salmon, they were fishing for chum and pink salmon. The sport fishermen automatically assumed that the commercial fishermen were taking all the coho salmon. He stated that the processors count the fish and records indicate that very few coho salmon were being caught as bycatch. He stated that ADF&G is trying to manage the fishery according to what they think is best for the resource. He stated that just because commercial fishing is occurring it does not mean that they are taking fish away from the rivers. Number 3113 MR. KNOWLES replied he questions ADF&G's sincerity because they do not respond immediately to problems when he calls. Number 3244 ELLA RING stated that she fishes in the Northern District and has seen a decline in the management of the area since 1989. She stated that she is making less then $5,000 a year. She stated that ADF&G is giving the East Side setnetters priority and are not allowing the fish to get up to her area. She stated that she is in favor of HB 56 regarding the buy back of limited entry permits. She stated that she is tired of fighting this issue. Number 3540 WILLIAM JARVIS, Sport Fisherman, stated that he is in support of HB 149. He stated that the Deshka River has been closed for the past four years to king salmon fishing, with the exception of this year. He stated that HB 149 will help manage all of the rivers and get fish back into the rivers. He stated that something needs to be done, otherwise there will not be a resource. He suggested limits on sport fishing and commercial fishing so that the fish will come back into the rivers. Number 3716 RAINY BELL, Northern District Setnetter, she stated that she is a third generation fisherman and she fishes with her mother and grand-mother. She stated that more than 80 percent of the permits in the Northern District are held by residents. She asked who is going to pay for the implementation of the bill. She asked why should her livelihood be denied for somebody else's sport fish pleasure. She stated that she fishes to put herself through college. She stated that she does not consider herself an elitist and does not think HB 149 will solve the problems. She stated that overcrowding on the streams, destruction of habitat and too many nonresident anglers are the problem. She stated that HB 149 will take away a lot of jobs in the state. She stated that an influx of salmon in the rivers destroys everything as too many fish in a river is worse than too few. Number 4229 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA apologized for having to leave early to catch a flight home. He thanked everybody for testifying. He said, "It was actually encouraging for me to know that there are so many people in Representative Kohring's and Representative Ogan's district that actually think more like I think than I thought there were." He stated that he will commit himself to make sure that there is a healthy fishery for everyone. Number 4243 JIM HERMAN, Setnetter, stated he did not know where Chairman Austerman was from but he noticed that his "hackles rose" every time Kodiak was mentioned. He stated that 15 years ago commercial fishermen where catching 500,000 red salmon in Kodiak. He stated that when the salmon started coming to Kodiak in large numbers, ADF&G open the season for two 48-hour-periods a week and the catch increased to 5.5 million salmon. He stated that ADF&G has opened Cook Inlet for nine days to the drifters but the setnetters were only allowed to fish two tides a week. He stated that this year the East Side was opened for 12 days and he felt that ADF&G could do better. Number 4521 MR. HERMAN stated that catch and release of king salmon is a lot of waste. He stated that ADF&G tracked the catch and release kings and recorded a 10 percent loss. He stated that there is 87 percent loss of the catch and release coho salmon. He stated that ADF&G could do a better job of managing the fishery. Number 4741 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that he is from Kodiak and he does get upset when reference is made to the Kodiak Seiners strike and the return of kings to Cook Inlet without any proof or substantiation. TAPE 97-27, SIDE B Number 0001 Number 0010 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that intercepting salmon has gone ever since salmon have been migrating. He stated that he gets upset with the false correlation that the king salmon only returned to the Deshka River because the Kodiak seiners were on strike. He stated that the king salmon reach that river long before there is a seine opening in Kodiak. He stated that he does not dispute the inception of red salmon. Number 0155 NOEL WOODS stated that he hoped this bill will address where the fish are in the streams and rivers. He stated that he was disappointed when the Board of Fisheries decided to no longer continue the genetic testing program that identified where the fish spawn. He stated that it is most important to know that there is escapement of salmon for spawning in the streams. He stated that he would like to see an emphasis on biological management. He stated that this year personal use fishing in Upper Cook Inlet was closed to setnetters. He stated that ADF&G needs to be questioned on their use of the scientific information that is available on identifying the escapement goals and identifying the timing and the location of the runs returning to the various streams. Number 0723 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated that he has questioned ADF&G and they have admitted that they do not have as much data as they need for Upper Cook Inlet. He stated that perhaps with additional funding this will change. Number 0740 MR. WOODS stated that since the commercial and sport fishermen outnumber personal use fishermen in representation, accurate research is the only way resolve some of the questions. Number 0831 ROBERT HALL, Representative, Houston Chamber of Commerce, stated that he served as chairman of the F.I.S.H. Initiative. He stated that there is a problem in the Northern District. He stated that in 1983 there were around 1,500 fish in a particular fishing stream. He stated that in the last couple of years there have been about 130 fish. He stated that streams in Cottonwood, Wasilla, Jim Creek and Fish Creek are suffering severe low returns. He stated that the personal use fisheries are suffering. He stated that it is a complex issue and it is not fair to just point a finger at the commercial fishermen. He stated that the biggest problem is that the Kenai River has increased it runs, causing the intercept from the East Side setnetters to increase. He stated that the state management system is broken. The allocation process is overwhelmed and is only allowed to make incremental changes. He stated that the Cook Inlet Salmon Management Plan requires that the harvest of silvers be limited. He stated that there are many days in August when the Northern District Setnetters harvest more coho salmon then they do red salmon. He stated that the Board of Fisheries approved the commercial harvest on hatchery fish in front of Fish Creek but they are intercepting the native stocks as well. He stated that this decision was a biologically unsound decision and it was a political decision. It is decisions like this that ignite this bill. He stated that he believes that commercial fishermen feel they own the fish. He stated that the rest of Alaskans feel that the fish belong to everyone and this is what causes the conflict. He stated that the commercial fishermen can't do anything about what is happening with fish prices and the effect of farmed fish, but they can do something about the sport fishermen. Number 1600 MR. HALL stated that the resident and nonresident issue is a smoke screen. He said, "We all know that the number of fish caught by outside residents isn't that high." He asked how many commercial fishermen would support a law that provided a priority for Alaskans to feed their families. He stated that Governor Knowles stated that he would put general fund money into the sport fish and game budget, however this has not happened. He stated that it is true that there is an increase in the population of the Mat-Su Borough and there has not been an increase in the allocation of fish. He stated that there is a problem and the legislature needs to tell the Board of Fisheries that they have to solve it. He stated that there are residents who would like to feed their families and their are guides who would like to make some money. Number 1748 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated that ADF&G has stated that when there is a huge run on the Kenai River, Upper Cook Inlet is somewhat managed by default, because of the intense fishing occurring on the lower part of the Inlet. Number 1915 DAVE RING, Commercial Fisherman, stated that he has been a commercial fishermen for 46 years and there is a split between sport and commercial fishermen. He stated that many of the Natives where cut off at Point Woronzof. He stated that there was no biological reason for this to occur. He stated that every fishery has a claim to the resource. He stated that this year if commercial fishing was closed on the Northern District only 3 percent more fish would be gained. He stated that there are problems in how the fish are managed. There are some streams up by the Matanuska that have been managed almost to extinction. He suggested that the committee read an article in the Reader's Digest on fisheries management. He stated that if a lot of fish return to a river and die they put a lot of nitrogen back into the stream. Nitrogen rich streams put out double the smolt. He stated that he does not believe there is saturation in the river to the point of endangerment. He stated that it is a management scare used to justify how they manage other districts. Number 2409 MR. RING stated that he would like to intercept the fish by Point MacKenzie rather then fish for dark fish in Fish Creek. He stated that there needs to be fish management that will involve the Northern District and the sport fishermen. He stressed management for the little streams. He stated that the Big Susitna used to produce one-third of the fish in the entire inlet. Number 3000 LLOYD MONTGOMERY, Commercial Fisherman, stated that he is opposed to HB 149. He asked Representative Kohring what his definition is of fishing in front of the Kenai River. He asked, "When they take a net do to they completely close off the Kenai River so that a fish can't go by." Number 3137 REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING stated that he did not know. Number 3139 MR. MONTGOMERY stated that it is impossible to close off the Copper River with a net that is 900 feet long and 28 to 30 feet deep. He stated that in the Mat-Su valley and Kenai River, it is being said that commercial fishermen have nets wide and deep enough to close off the entire river. He stated that it is not true or possible for commercial fishermen to close off the River with their nets. Number 3339 MR. MONTGOMERY stated that HB 149 is about guaranteeing a certain group 5 percent of the fish so they can be guaranteed millionaires. He stated that bill is not about fish or taking care of the habitat, it is about money. Number 3550 JUNE BURKHART stated that she is a 30 year resident of Alaska and has lived in Willow for the past 10 years. She stated that she supports Representative Kohring's efforts with HB 149. She stated that at least he is trying to get something done about the problem in the Northern area of Cook Inlet. She stated that she is not opposed to commercial fishing. She stated that they have a right to make a living in Alaska just as resident guides do. She stated that she would like the three groups to come together and find a solution. Number 3920 JERRY MCCUNE, President, Cordova District Fishermen United, stated that he agreed with Ms. Burkhart in that everyone should work together. He stated that both sport and commercial fishermen have worked together on a lot of projects. He stated that his objection to the bill is that the 5 percent allocation is based on the statewide number of fish which is about 150 to 160 millon fish. He stated that the 5 percent would equal 8.5 million fish which would be caught in red and king salmon, not the pink salmon which are counting for 80 million of the state wide harvest. He stated that sport fishermen do not target pink salmon. He suggested that all groups work together to get better research and find out what is wrong with the streams. Number 4150 DAN TUCKER, Charter Guide, stated that he is a member of the Mat-Su Mayor's Committee of Fisheries, Mat-Su Fisheries Advisory Committee, Mat-Su Professional Guides Association and an advisor to Representative Masek. He stated that he is in support of HB 149. He stated that the present management level and funding level is not acceptable because the results are not acceptable. He stated that there are population pressures on Cook Inlet salmon that need to be recognized. He stated that more roads would not solve the problem unless there are more fish in the rivers. He stated that if stocks are added to the rivers the commercial fishing intercept will be increased. He stated that there is no reason to reduce the number of commercial fishing permits in the rivers because it is necessary for the excess fish harvest. He stated in regards to limiting the number of sport fish guides in Cook Inlet they provide access to the fish and there is no reason to create a new elitist fishery. He stated that his economic contribution as a sport fish guide has decreased because of the decrease in the number of salmon. He stated that he does not believe sport fishermen should be taxed because they are not selling fish, they are selling the opportunity for people to catch fish. Number 4728 STACIE STIGAR, Representative, Greater Wasilla Chamber of Commerce, stated that she is here to testify in support of HB 149. She stated that she would like the committee to consider Resolution 9704, which is a resolution in support of SB 40. TAPE 97-28, SIDE A Number 0001 MS. STIGAR stated that too much of Alaska's fisheries management is being driven by allocation battles instead of by sound science and pertinent information. She stated that there needs to be discreet salmon stock assessment that will allow the Board of Fisheries to get research on stocks and fisheries; the areas that they need the most information in. REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked how many people is she representing. Number 0047 MS. STIGAR stated that she is representing 315 businesses. Number 0057 DAVID HARRISON asked the committee if they believed that Alaska should get the fish first. He asked if the committee has read the state's constitution. He stated that the fish stocks are almost depleted. He stated that he has a salmon hatchery and has received threats from ADF&G that they will break his equipment. He stated that his hatchery is not polluted unlike the state hatcheries. He stated that the destruction of the resource does not only come from overfishing but from overdevelopment. He stated that it is an issue of the health of the resource. He stated that the legislature is in violation of the constitution, Article 12, Section 12, because the fish belong to the Natives of Alaska and not to the state. He stated that the state manages on a maximum harvest and not on a sustained yield basis, as the constitution states. He stated that the government is not doing what they are supposed to be doing. He stated that people who like to hunt or fish for sport are sick people and should be psychiatrically evaluated. He stated that the resource should be for the people of the communities. Number 0716 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated that Article 12, Section 12 pertaining specifically to the areas of Annette Island and Metlakatla. Number 0726 MR. HARRISON stated that he was wrong and told Representative Ogan to look at the genocide act because this is causing conditions of life that are calculated to bring about the physical destruction of the group. Number 0845 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN thanked everyone for coming he stated that other hearings are going to be held in the future. He stated that he will kill this bill in its present form and not move it out of the committee but he is more than willing to work to have a resolution to the problem. Number 0951 REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING thanked everybody for coming. Number 1004 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated that there is a difference in opinion between those who harvest fish for commercial purposes and those who live in the Mat-Su valley. He stated that he will work with the committee on the problem.
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